Dear Spirit of Cecilia Readers, whenever Big Big Train offers up a new album, it’s not just yet another release, it’s a major–and not unoften life changing–event.  In early February, the band will be releasing a concept album, the sixteen-track Woodcut.  Thanks to the good folks at Big Big Train and Insideout Music, we were graced with an advanced review copy of the new album.  To say it’s brilliant would be the grand understatement of both 2025 and 2026.  Here’s what Tad, Rick, and Brad think about it.

Brad: Hey guys!  So great to be reviewing this with you both.  As I start to type this, it’s a Sunday morning (I went to Mass last night), and the snow is ever so gently but steadily falling.  My cats are prowling around, and I’m sitting in my precious work chair, and I’m also enjoying a great cup of coffee.  And, of course, I’m listening to Woodcut.  Life is good.  Really good.

My journey with the band goes back to 2009 when our own Carl E. Olson the Grand sent me a track from Big Big Train’s The Underfall Yard.  I’d never heard of the band, but I was immediately taken with the track Carl shared, “Evening Star.”  So taken, in fact, that I immediately bought the album and, much to my surprise, I reached out to Greg Spawton through Facebook.  It was potentially presumptuous and obnoxious to do so, but I just had to let this man know what I thought of his music.  My first listen to The Underfall Yard wasn’t just a listen to yet another new album, another new band.  This was a major moment in my life–akin to hearing Selling England by the Pound or Moving Pictures or Hounds of Love or The Colour of Spring for the first time.  My soul was rocked by the very depth and majesty of the art.  To this day, The Underfall Yard remains one of my two or three all-time favorite albums, and I never tire of hearing it.  Indeed, every new listen is a rewarding one.

And, amazingly enough, rather than chastizing me for invading his privacy, Greg very graciously wrote back to me, and we began a correspondence and friendship that very much lasts through this day.  In our correspondence, we’ve shared not only tidbits about life, but books.  And, my kids–when younger–colored pictures for him!  We even sent him some tree nuts and various seeds from Michigan, hoping he could replant them in English soil.

Amazingly enough, I interviewed Greg last week via Zoom.  It was the first time we had actually ever spoken to one another, face to face!  God bless, modern technology.

This is a long way of saying, I can’t even imagine the last sixteen years of my life without Greg’s friendship or without Big Big Train as the soundtrack to my life and my writing.

What about you guys?  How did you first encounter Big Big Train?

Tad: Well, Brad, I first encountered BBT because of you! We had just connected online through a mutual love of Talk Talk’s Spirit of Eden, and you messaged me that I had to check out this band, Big Big Train. Their website had downloads of most of The Difference Machine and The Underfall Yard (this was before any streaming services), and I was hooked. It wasn’t until I bought hard copies of their albums that I realized Difference Machine and Underfall Yard had different singers!

Like you, The Underfall Yard remains a favorite album of mine, regardless of artist or genre. It is a timeless work of art, suffused with gratitude and grace. That said, they’ve come a long way since then, haven’t they? With the exception of Greg Spawton and Nick D’Virgilio, they are an entirely different group now. The one constant has been the consistently high quality of their music. The only other artist I can compare them to in that respect is Glass Hammer.

Rick: Brad & Tad, thanks for inviting me to join the celebration! As I’ve said elsewhere, despite Prog Magazine’s consistently championing Big Big Train over the years, I didn’t connect with them seriously until 2016. I was searching for a musical mood enhancer one afternoon at work, and I came across From Stone and Steel on Spotify.

Any number of things about that BluRay soundtrack appealed to me: the band was so tight, David Longdon’s singing was so adventurous, the scenarios and soundscapes were so involving. But it was actually the brass that got me.  When they slammed into the choruses of “The Underfall Yard” and the lead trumpet soared heavenward at the end of “Victorian Brickwork”, I was hooked! (In fact, I cried during that “Victorian Brickwork” playout that afternoon – and I still do, every time!)  

I had to hear more. Folklore was just out, so I bought it ASAP and loved it. Ditto for the back catalog, including my favorite to this day, English Electric: Full Power. And to cap it all off, I ordered the Stone and Steel Blu-Ray via BBT’s website. Only when I got it, the thing wouldn’t play – due to technical issues with my Blu-Ray player that had already caused American customers plenty of headaches. What was I supposed to do?  

That’s where Big Big Train’s amazing fans, the Passengers, came in. With an enthusiastic welcome to BBT’s Facebook group and all the kindness in the world, they steered me toward both a downloadable version of the video and a Blu-Ray player that would play S&S. I was so moved, I figured out how to burn the download version to DVD and shared instructions for doing so with the group – I even got attaboys from band members about that!  

It struck me that this was a band and a fandom where you could feel at home, and I started proclaiming the wonders of BBT to anyone who would listen. When my friend Rob Olson saw Sarah Ewing’s Folklore-era band portrait as my laptop’s background screen, he said, “I need to introduce you to another friend of mine . . . “  And that’s how I got to know Brad. So I’ve always considered discovering Big Big Train an event with exponential benefits; when music connects people and builds friendships, it’s an amazing gift.

Brad: I love both stories, guys.  Very nice.  And, I’m so glad that I served as a BBT evangelist!  I’ve been doing everything I can to promote the band since first hearing them in 2009.  They’re worthy of being shouted about, to be sure!  And, let me note here, Tad, I’m so glad to be reviewing with you, my friend.  And, Rick, likewise–I’m so glad to be reviewing with you.  Honestly, I think we should make this a permanent arrangement.  As much as you guys have time for.

Ok, let’s talk Woodcut.  We’ve been–by the grace of Insideout Music, Roie Avin, and the band–given an early look at the album.  Wow, just wow.  I’m still at that stage where my jaw is on the floor, and I’m just gobsmacked.  I’ve now listened to the album, 10-12 times, and it has not in the least grown old.  Indeed, each listen has only made me love this album more and more.

Let me admit–and it’s hard to admit–my reluctance to dive into this version of Big Big Train.  I was so in love with the David Longdon/Greg Spawton combination that I didn’t want to love a new iteration of the band.  I was, sadly and to my shame, very reluctant to allow the new singer to replace the old.  For that, I publicly apologize.  Frankly, I’m better than such pettiness, and I’m truly sorry I was so hesitant to embrace change.  So, Alberto Bravin, I owe you a huge apology.  For what it’s worth–coming from a long-time die-hard fan–a belated welcome to the band and all it stands for.  After hearing Woodcut, I think you’re absolutely brilliant and so very worthy of the band, and the band worthy of you.  Again, who am I to say all of this?  Just a hard-headed goofball from the U.S. who should practice what he preaches–love and charity and welcoming–more than he does.

Ok, bless me Father, for I have sinned!

Now, in the moments after absolution . . .  I can declare that I think Bravin is simply genius.  From what Greg said in an interview with me (which was awesome), the concept really did come from the two men, with Bravin providing the needed inspiration and energy to get the thing written.  Musically, the album reflects the whole band, but with Bravin doing the hard work of making it a concept album in terms of intermixing musical themes, and with Greg and Claire Lindley writing most of the lyrics.  So, definitely a team effort but moved as a project by Bravin.

If this is what Bravin is capable of doing, then, by all means, keep running.  I think the band is in very safe hands.

Tad: Brad, I was the same as you regarding BBT getting a new vocalist, but I am 100% on board the Big Big Bravin Train! He was definitely an inspired choice. 

Okay, Brad and Rick, I’m interested to hear your thoughts on Woodcut. I love the way it begins with a short, stately instrumental and then immediately plunges into the first single, The Artist. There is an interplay among the musicians here that is amazing. Greg Spawton’s bass is simply outstanding as it reinforces the staccato riff that underpins the melody. (Rick forgive me, I’m not a trained musician, so I don’t know if I’m getting my terms right!) Bravin’s vocals are terrific here – full of passion while avoiding histrionics. I also love the background vocal harmonies – I don’t think BBT has had any like these before – they are very rich and complex. 

The production overall is really nice: multilayered without sounding cluttered. I’m a big fan of the bass, and it’s so nice to hear Spawton’s playing featured prominently in the mix. For comparison’s sake (I know, comparison is the thief of joy), I listened to East Coast Racer immediately after The Artist, and the latter has incredible power. Woodcut’s production is the best of any BBT album to date; it just sounds amazing.

Brad: Thanks so much, Tad.  I’m in complete agreement with you.  I love Greg’s bass–so utterly driving and mesmerizing–Bravin sounds amazing, the story and the lyrics are just brilliant.  During my interview with Greg, he mentioned that there was some concern about the band doing a concept album.  I will admit, I’m the very last person to criticize a concept album.  From the Moody Blues (Days of Future Passed), Genesis (Lamb Lies Down on Broadway), Pink Floyd (Animals), XTC (Skylarking), Riverside (original trilogy), Rush (Clockwork Angels), Steven Wilson (HAND.CANNOT.ERASE), Coheed and Cambria (the norm, rather than the exception) etc., I’m a huge fan.  If I could, I would rather listen to concept albums any day or non-concept albums.  

Yet, I probably define concept rather loosely, as, to me, BBT has already written concept albums.  The Underfall Yard, English Electric, and Grand Tour are all so tied together as to be concept albums.  Am I being too loose in my definition, what do you think?

Any, I love everything about this album.  It really soars.  The bass, the guitars, the drums, the keyboards (absolutely love the keyboards) and Bravin’s plaintive vocals.  It really does all come together rather brilliantly.

Rick: Brad, to tackle one point you raised: there really isn’t a hard and fast definition of a concept album.  I tend to think of albums with a start-to-finish, narrative story line – The Who’s Tommy & Quadrophenia, Pink Floyd’s The Wall, Genesis’ The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Neal Morse’s Testimony & Testimony 2  – as what that genre was called when it emerged back in the late 1960s: rock operas!  On the other hand, albums like the Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here, Yes’ Tales from Topographic Oceans, the BBT albums you mentioned would be concept albums in my thinking – they focus on common lyrical and musical ideas throughout, but any story they tell is more implicit.  Of those two types, I’d call Woodcut a rock opera, just to be a little retro!

I understand the reluctance you both felt to embrace a post-David Longdon Big Big Train; I remember how hollow it seemed to consider the band continuing in the wake of his untimely death.  But when I got to interview Alberto Bravin early in 2024, I thought, “this guy has obviously bonded with Spawton; he genuinely loves and respects the band’s legacy; and he’s very much his own man. This could be interesting.”  Then The Likes of Us proved to be another first-rate album, one I couldn’t stop listening to, with great music and a lyrical throughline that felt very personal, but also very relatable.  And I had the privilege of seeing BBT live twice in the last two years: at their 2024 kick-off North American gig in Fort Wayne, and at a hole-in-the-wall rock club on the west side of Detroit last year.  Looking back at those shows, I realized that every single person in the band could hold the stage all by themselves – but also that live, they played off each other constantly and made each other better!

I think that that band chemistry is a big part of why, as an album, Woodcut is so strong; it’s engrossing in a way that feels natural and organic.  Tad, you’re right about “The Artist”: those precise, tough band riffs and Spawton’s distinctive bass licks – plus the chiming 12-string guitar – have a  powerful impact and really pull you in.  And there’s more where that came from in the second single, “The Sharpest Blade”: folk and metal elements that share a harmonic vocabulary, Clare Lindley and Bravin working as lyrical and vocal foils, each urging the other forward.  Neither of these songs are clever for the sake of just being clever or showing off musical chops; it’s thoroughly eclectic, heartfelt, slamming stuff!

Something about the album as a whole: I saw that, both in the promo material and on his Substack, Greg mentioned The Lamb and Topographic Oceans as prototypical concept albums.  And both of those albums have always had mixed reviews, from the general public, from prog fans, even from the band members themselves.  I tend to feel that, lyrically,The Lamb doesn’t quite stick the landing of Gabriel’s surreal storyline, and that Topographic starts great and ends great, but kind of sags in the middle.  The measure of Woodcut’s achievement is that it doesn’t have either of those problems.  The whole thing jells and builds, through all of its twists and turns and ebbs and flows, from start to finish – and the final destination is well worth the journey, with multiple genuine goosebump moments, in the tradition of “she fliiiiies!”.  (Another thing that struck me: The Lamb’s 50th anniversary super deluxe box came out last fall – with a great remaster that clarifies how strongly the music carries the plot – and there’s a Topographic box set coming out the same week as this album.  Speaking as one hardcore BBT fan to two others, I can’t help but wish we had a Woodcut super-deluxe box right now!!) 

Tad: Rick, thank you for your wonderfully perceptive thoughts! I’m so glad you mentioned “The Sharpest Blade”, as that is my favorite track (at the time of this writing)! I love Clare’s vocals, and the largely acoustic instrumentation is perfect. The melody has a distinct Celtic feel, with a hint of menace to it. It’s a fantastic track!

As for the concept, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to concern an artist whose medium is woodcuts. He somehow winds up in a scene he has created with his “sharpest blade”. While this artificial world is beautiful, he is desperate to get back to reality:

I can’t find a way back to the path that leads me home

No place for a man under the shroud

I’m out of bounds
(From “Dreams In Black and White”)

The ending is ambiguous, which I like. There are several possible ways to interpret it.

Brad: A huge thank you to you both.  Excellent thoughts from both of you.  The kind of thoughts that really make me think and really make me question my own perspective.  

Rick, it’s quite possible that I’m simply too much of a fanboy here, but I feel like The Lamb delivered everything just perfectly.  I say this, however, as someone who has obsessed over this album since I first encountered it.  Every time I listen to it, I feel that full immersion.  In fact, I so desperately want to immerse myself completely in it.  It’s a part of the joy of the album.  And, I can just imagine my youth–so there’s a lot of nostalgia involved in this–turnng off the bedroom lights and putting the headphones on, and just losing myself for the duration of the full album.  Rael!

As much as I wanted to love Tales from Topographic Oceans, I just never could.  I could never immerse myself in the same way.  Too many things drew me out–the goofy random bangs and noises, the nonsensical lyrics.  I guess I respect what Yes was trying to do, but I can’t embrace it.

As of this writing, I’ve probably listened to Woodcut 15 times, the full-way through.  To me, it perfectly captures everything that The Lamb tried to do and completely avoids the “noise” and excess of Tales.  The story has me completely hooked, and I very much want to know every nuance of it.  From what I can tell, it’s a fairy tale, complete and whole and without apology.  It strikes me very much like Tolkien’s Smith of Wooton Major.  An artist–one truly gifted by nature and grace–enters into the woods (Fairy, or something akin to Dante’s Divine Comedy), where he encounters truly beautiful and truly perilous things (like Frodo at Galadriel’s mirror).  At this point, the artist can choose either the darkness or the light.  Not surprisingly, given everything BBT stands for, the story has a happy ending, with the artist choosing the light.  

Tolkien said that all good Fairy Stories must end with a “euchatrastrophe”–the surprising ending of pure joy.  With the end of Woodcut, we find ourselves with Sam replanting the Shire with the soil of Lothlorien and with Dante seeing the Most Blessed Trinity.  In BBT terms, we find ourselves having entered the “Meadowland” of Grimspound.  We encountered the truest beauty and the greatest good imaginable, and we didn’t turn away, even in the realization that everything we are is miniscule compared to the majesties of the universe and of the divine.  We could’ve run in shame, or embraced the darkness in wrath, but we choose the Good, the True, and the Beautiful.  Or, like Wiglaf in Beowulf, we return to the “Meadhall in Winter.”

My sense is that even though Bravin has brilliantly become the front man (and he’s genius, in and of himself), the shadow of David Longdon hangs over this whole album.  Just as The Lord of the Rings is the fulfilment of The Hobbit, Woodcut is the fulfillment of Grimspound and The Underfall Yard and English Electric and the Grand Tour.  That is, Bravin doesn’t take us out of BBT, he takes us further in.  There is harmony and continuity, not discord and revolution.  Simply put, we end in euchatastrophe.

Tad: Brad, I can’t add anything to your brilliant analysis, which makes a lot of sense, by the way. They should have had you write the liner notes! 

The last thing I want to mention is how well the entire album flows. Even though there are 16 tracks, they segue into each other so well that it’s really one seamless suite of music. This is definitely an album to listen to in its entirety. I’m really impressed with it, and I am so excited for this new chapter in the long story of Big Big Train.

Rick: Brad, as always, you find marvelously apt comparisons! I hadn’t thought of Smith of Wooton Major in this context, but it certainly resonates; Tolkien knew the English legendarium of Faerie well, though he didn’t write fiction based on it till his latter years, and he called it the Perilous Realm for good reason. (Robert Holdstock’s Ryhope Wood series and Susanna Clarke’s Jonathan Strange & Mister Norrell are other outstanding takes on that literary tradition, by the way – though both are inherently darker.) There’s this uneasy, major/minor ambivalence in the music of “The Lie of the Land”, the point in the story where the Artist finds the mystical heartwood, that captures that feel. Beauty and danger, grace and temptation impinge on a life that’s felt stagnant until that point.

And it also resonates that “Meadowlands” is this album’s landing point in the BBT cosmos. If the Spawton/Longdon band had a mission statement, that gorgeous song was it. But I’d argue that, at the end of the album, the landing point is also a launching point. The Artist embraces all the good in what he’s desired, but with everything he’s experienced, he can’t stay at that still point. Like in Leonard Cohen’s classic song “Night Comes On”, he has to “go back, go back to the world” and witness to the joy and the pain he’s lived through. (Didn’t know I was gonna synthesize both of your POVs, guys, but there it is!  Eagerly waiting on Andy Stuart’s book on the album to explore his take.) 

And Tad, while you’re right about how seamless and organic the album is as a whole, there are so many standout moments in individual tracks, too: more hard-hitting band riffs on “Albion Press”; the breathtaking moment Spawton’s bass pedals kick in on “Arcadia”; how Nick D’Virgilio’s fingerprints are all over “Warp and Weft”, with herky-jerky guitar licks that feel like XTC, a cappella singing a la Gentle Giant or Spock’s Beard, and a lead vocal that remind me of his great solo album Invisible. If your attention ever wanders while you listen, there’s something that pulls you back in right quick.

But again, the entire album flows – especially from “Light Without Heat” through “Last Stand”, an album finale that stands alongside any favorite prog epic any of us could name. That last section especially has it all – expansive musical themes (including callbacks to earlier in the album), inspired solo work (especially from Oskar Holldorff and Rikard Sjoblom) and gripping development in “Cut and Run” that sets up the final, cathartic anthem, with Bravin riding above it all. His vocal on “Counting Stars” is right up there with Longdon’s best moments (ultimately backed by bass pedals and Paul Mitchell’s trumpet, no less – “Victorian Brickwork” re-envisioned?). And then a spiraling, shattering ending that has to be heard to be believed! If I had to sum up my reaction to Woodcut, the first time I heard it, I was definitely impressed; now, on repeat listens, it genuinely moves me. In other words, it does what Big Big Train’s music has consistently done for me for nearly ten years now.

Brad: Tad and Rick, thank you so much!  What an amazing discussion.  I’ve had the chance to say this elsewhere, but I think that one of the highest compliments we can ever give to art is that art, properly conceived and properly made real, always leads to the formation of friendships and communities.  No one in the music world better inspires the creation of friendship and communities than does Greg Spawton and Big Big Train.  Their very art makes us better.  It makes us more human and, dare I say in this world of shadows, more humane.

For those interested in Woodcut, you can purchase at either Burning Shed or Band Wagon USA.  Both sites are linked here.

Most of all, enjoy!

[Hello Spirit of Cecilia Reader. On December 2, 2025, I had the great privilege of talking with Big Big Train’s main man, Gregory Mark Spawton. As it turns out, Greg and I have been corresponding with one another since 2009–sometimes a rather frequent correspondence that often included gifts of books, etc.–but we’d never actually talked face to face. So, for me, especially, talking with Greg was an absolute thrill. It’s not often that you get to meet your heroes. I would’ve loved to have met Mark Hollis, for example, but that can never be. So, getting to meet Greg is a real treat. And, not surprisingly, he’s as kind and as intelligent as I’d always imagined him to be. We talked for an incredibly long time–a huge thanks to Greg for his time and graciousness–and the transcript of our conversation is 46 pages long in Microsoft Word. I’ve never edited a transcript before, so this has been an experiment. As such–and I hope you’ll all forgive me–I’m going to publish the interview in a series of parts, based on the topics we covered. Here’s the first part of our interview–focused on Greg’s publishing firm, Kingmaker. Please enjoy. Yours, Brad]

Brad: Well, Greg, this is fantastic that we get to talk.  I mean, it’s good for my soul to see you and to talk to you. Absolutely wonderful. And you know, I mean, I don’t want to embarrass you, but I really can’t imagine my life or any of my writing without you as my soundtrack, really ever since I heard The Underfall Yard.  You guys—you, David, Nick, and everybody—you’ve just been such a part of my life.  Yet, it’s amazing to me that this is actually our first time talking, face to face.  

You know, I had interviewed David and had a really good time doing that.

I’d like to talk a little bit about Kingmaker and if you could give me a little bit of the history of that, why you got interested in publishing, how many books a year you guys are doing, how that’s going, how it’s tied to Big, Big Train, etc.

Greg: Yeah, well, life’s a bit strange for me because, as you know, until maybe ten years ago, I still had an office job and I was doing music on the side.  As it transpired, I was able to quit work and focus on being a musician full time.  And then an opportunity arose to do to work in books as well.  So my two sort of loves of my life aside from my wife and my kids and my cats are books and music.  So I found myself in a position with Nick Shilton, the Big Big Train manager.  At the time he was writing a book on Big Big Train and in order to get it published, we thought actually, you know, rather than just go down a self-publishing route, let’s set up a publisher and see if we can also publish some other music-related books.  

And in fact, before we got round to publishing the first Big Big Train book, we published a book by Mario Giammetti, an Italian journalist and the foremost expert on Genesis. And I’d known Mario for quite some time.

I remember I had an email from him: “Do you know any way I can get into the English publishing industry?” So we had great pleasure in publishing those two volumes on Genesis and a couple of books on Big Big Train.

And hot off the press is a huge book on Peter Hammil and Van der graaf Generator and it is really a really big thing, you know.  It’s so detailed.  Peter Hammond is one of the most interesting lyricists in progressive rock.  So his work for me requires and benefits from quite a detailed analysis, which is what this book does.

Kingmaker is a business, so you know we have to commission or publish books that will not lose money, but, on the other hand, we want them to be things that we would want to read and that we’re interested in.

So that’s our modus operandi, you know.  Would we enjoy reading that book and is it going to work for us in terms of business?  And it’s been great.  It’s been quite a ride.  We’ve got a Yes book that we’re working on that we hope will be out next year.  And we’re aiming for all of the publications to be as good as they can get in terms of how they’re written and in content.  So yeah, it’s been a been a very interesting process.

Of course, you’ve been in the publishing business as an author—a published author for many, many years—but this is much more of a new experience for me.

Brad: I like it, Greg!  And I I proudly own the Genesis volumes and I’ve got, of course, the Andrew Wild books—all just really, really excellent.  So I’ve enjoyed what you’ve done.

I knew you loved books, but I didn’t realize that you would be so much in love with them that you would become a publisher.  So I thought that was great.

Greg: Yeah, it was just one of those moments where me and Nick sort of looked at each other and just said, “let’s see what we can do here.”  And then I remember Mario pitching a Genesis book to us.  And so we met him in London a few years ago, liked him, got the books translated.   In fact, quite a few of our books have started life in the Italian language because there’s a big prog rock community there.  It’s probably the second most vibrant market, certainly in terms of 70s prog rock.  And, I’m kind of at a reasonable level of Italian now myself. So, I’ve been doing a little bit of translation work.

We’ve got a new book that’s coming out on Tony Banks as the first English language biography of Tony Banks.  That’s coming out in February, I think, or January. That’s another great read and it focuses on Tony’s solo work rather than his work with Genesis.  It goes through the Genesis years but it  focuses on an area of his work that’s not really been talked about much.

If it goes well, we’ll try and get some books together on the other members of Genesis and take it from there and see where we end up.

Brad: Yeah, I pre-ordered the Tony Banks, so I’m very much looking forward to it now.

Greg:   So that said, I find Banks a bit of an enigma really because the guy that wrote, say, Firth of Fifth or Madman Moon has also written some quite cheesy pop stuff at times.

There’s nothing wrong pop music.  I love pop music, but I love pop music that’s not cheesy and is well crafted.

And some of his music, some of his solo music, has kind of strayed into that and it’s slightly enigmatic for me to find a character or an individual that can do on the one hand something as absolutely sensationally written and composed as Firth of Fifth and then something on the other side of things.

And the biography is critical.  It’s a critical analysis of his work.  So by no means . . . we’re not putting him up on a pedestal.  We tell the truth.  And, so it’s  interesting for me for that reason.

We’re in awe of what he can do, so we’re not completely critical, you know, just as I’ve written some terrible songs sometimes.  We’ve all done it.

We’ve all done it but I struggle with him on that, the same with Mike Rutherford.   I can’t see how they can’t see how I think—objectively—elements of their music from the 70s are simply more interesting, at a higher level of art, than some of their later sort of big stuff.

That’s what I struggle with there, you know, that they don’t seem to be able to see that. For me, it’s so obvious, but then we’re not always the best judges of our own material.

Brad: Yeah, I I’m reminded Neil Peart was just horrified when Asia came out—that Carl Palmer could go from ELP to Asia .

Greg: It is, you know, and Nick Shilton’s my manager’s and my publishing partner’s route into prog rock was via Asia.  So, you’ll be off his Christmas list now.

Brad: I actually enjoy that first Asia album, especially Sole Survivor.

Greg: I think some of it is pretty good fun, but I, you know, it’s hard for me when you’ve got a band like UK who are still making incredible albums in 1978 and then going to Asia maybe a couple of years later.

I think the problem was the business.  The music business was just headed down that money, money, money, commerce, commerce, commerce route.   We all live in a capitalistic society and, you know, we have to accept that that’s how things are, but it’s a shame that they throw out the baby with the bath water.

But John Wetton, who wrote a lot of that stuff . . . he liked pop music.

I think we forget that at the root of probably the best prog rock is often very well-crafted songs rather than, you know the sort of extensive instrumentals.  I think it’s when you get those two things together, that’s when I love prog rock.

So, for example, a song like Cinema Show—it’s got four or five minutes of really beautifully composed acoustic pop and then it goes into this sort of extended instrumental playout.

So you get the best of both worlds and that’s why I love prog rock really because you know you can do more than just the one thing, but you still, I think, at its best, you should have the song at the core of it in my opinion.

Brad: Thanks, Greg, that’s great.  I don’t want to jump into Woodcut yet, but obviously you guys do that with the Woodcut extraordinarily well.  Yeah, yeah, you succeed. Believe me. 

Back on Kingmaker, do you guys have a set number of books you’re trying to publish a year or is it basically as things come to you?

Greg: we’ve made a decision to do no more than four a year.

Brad: That’s what I figured.

Greg: It’s basically three to four and we’ve got a pipeline of several books ahead so we know we’re going to be in a year’s time.  We’re beginning to think of books maybe two or three years hence from now. But it’s hard, you know, it is hard work doing more than that.  And I think that the focus has got to be on quality, not quantity, because, you know, we could suddenly go down a different route where we were churning out books.

That’s the interesting thing setting up a publisher—with a bit of a track record now. We get people pitching us books all the time. Nine times out of ten we just say no A) because we don’t think it’s going to work commercially or it isn’t of interest to us or B) because we just don’t have the time, you know, as we want to manage these books through from the beginning to the end and,we’re a small publisher.  So you know, it’s a hands-on thing for us. 

Brad: just curious about the logistics.  Do you actually have a full-time layout person and are you doing the copy editing and who does your printing for you?

Greg: So we got lucky.  We found a printer down in Norwich way, in the east of England. Again, a small publishing house printer—they’ve got a really good graphic designer and he’s really focused on getting it right.  He will do the layouts for us.  

In terms of editing, it depends on the book really.  For one forthcoming book, the writer Joe, he kind of edited himself to be honest.  He’s a writer editor.  

And of course, then we just get Professor Geoff Parks, who’s our completely overqualified proof reader, but he goes through things, you know, proofs, and he’s really very precise in terms of both syntax and grammar and all those things that you need.

In terms of my editing role, yeah, I have actually edited a couple of the books and that’s been fun.  [Greg laughs] I’m not a very detailed person.  My wife would just laugh at the thought of me doing anything that requires a sense of detail.  And of course editing does require that, but I tend to be more of a kind of ideas editor, I think. For example, with Mario, there’ll be times when I’ve said to him, ‘actually there’s an aspect here that I don’t think works’ or  ‘I find this interesting and perhaps you could talk a bit more about it.’

That’s the kind of role I’ve had and it’s been nice, and there have been some good friendships made.

We’ve had a couple of books that have been good that have been ghost written, such as Mark Kelly from Marillion’s book.  A great book.  It was initially ghost written and then, I think, about halfway through, Mark began to pick up his own voice here, really.  I think having been back over the chapters with the ghostwriter, he was able to say, do you know, he was able to assume the voice of the ghostwriter and his own voice. And that was quite interesting because by about halfway through, I could no longer tell who’d written what chapter.  Mark’s a really clever guy.  He really got it together so it was hard then to tell the difference of what had already been through the ghostwriter or what had just gone straight from Mark.  So that was an evolving process as well.

And we’d like to do some more Marillion books because I think they’ve a really interesting story.  Very interesting.

Brad: Yeah, I have Steve Hogarth’s two volumes as well, which I I really enjoy.  It’s fun to go back to those.

Well, thanks, Greg.  That’s fascinating and I’m really glad that’s working out for you guys.  I think it’s just a great, great project and I’m really happy to support that.

[End interview, part I]

Big Big Train announce first ever narrative concept album ‘Woodcut’; launch first single “The Artist”Photo credit: Cécile LopesBig Big Train, the award-winning, international progressive rock band, will issue their 16th studio album via InsideOutMusic on February 6th, 2026. Woodcut is a landmark release for the international group, whose line-up draws together members from England, Scotland, Italy, the USA, Sweden and Norway, in that it marks their first ever full-length conceptual piece – quite a statement given the musical depth and storytelling qualities of a band formed in Bournemouth way back in 1990. Woodcut is a continuous narrative exploring creativity, sacrifice and the thin line between inspiration and madness. The band recently teased the new record with the launch of a short passage of music, which can now be revealed as the album’s introductory piece ‘Inkwell Black’. Today they are also pleased to reveal the first single from the album, ‘The Artist’, which is accompanied by a stunning video created by Crystal Spotlight. Watch it now here: https://youtu.be/lu2Xm2gMMWYBassist Gregory Spawton comments: “Woodcut tells the story of a character we call The Artist, who is struggling with his creativity and with life. One day he is able to fashion a woodcut which he considers to be beautiful and different. Maybe it’s a dream or maybe it’s real life, but he finds himself stepping into the woodcut scene and into an alternative world.” Woodcut sees all seven band members making stunning contributions, with frontman Alberto Bravin taking the lead as producer: “This time it’s kind of a new statement for the band. ‘Woodcut’ is a big step forward for us,” Bravin comments. With more than 400 individual recorded tracks of music to edit, streamline and piece together, and also with the connectivity of the album’s storyline and its themed instrumental sections to consider, this was a task of gargantuan proportions. “I felt a huge sense of relief when Alberto took over as producer,” says Spawton, the band’s final original co-founding member. “Although this is only Alberto’s second studio album with BBT, he is very aware of the traditions of the band and has also brought his own sense of energy to the music.”Woodcut feels like a Big Big Train record quite unlike any that came before—an assured union of music, storytelling and visual invention. The album is graced with a striking cover design from Dorset (England) based artist Robin Mackenzie – a black and white woodcut print, of course, derived from a woodcut which the band commissioned from him specifically for the album. Available as a Limited CD + Blu-ray edition, including extensive liner notes as well as Dolby Atmos & 5.1 Surround Sound mixes by Shawn Dealey of Sweetwater Studios, the album will also be available as a stunning Gatefold 180g 2LP with special embossed cover, Standard CD Jewelcase & Digitally in both Stereo and Dolby Atmos versions.Pre-orders are now available here: https://bigbigtrain.lnk.to/Woodcut-Album Featuring 16 tracks across 66-minutes of runtime, Woodcut feels epic without outstaying its welcome. From the intimacy of ‘Inkwell Black’ to the grandeur of ‘Counting Stars’, Woodcut is a defiant analogue statement in a digital age—a handcrafted, deeply human exploration of art, faith and endurance. The full track-listing is as follows: 1.         Inkwell Black 00:56 2.         The Artist 07:16 3.         The Lie of the Land 02:55 4.         The Sharpest Blade 04:16 5.         Albion Press 05:46 6.         Arcadia 05:46 7.         Second Press 00:37 8.         Warp and Weft 03:45 9.         Chimaera 05:37 10.       Dead Point 05:28 11.       Light Without Heat 03:22 12.       Dreams in Black and White 02:34 13.       Cut and Run 06:19 14.       Hawthorn White 01:54 15.       Counting Stars 05:40 16.       Last Stand 03:34 ALBERTO BRAVIN – Lead vocals, guitar, keyboards NICK D’VIRGILIO – Drums, percussion, 12-string acoustic guitar, vocals OSKAR HOLLDORFF – Keyboards, vocals CLARE LINDLEY – Violin, acoustic guitar, vocals PAUL MITCHELL – Trumpet, piccolo trumpet, vocals RIKARD SJÖBLOM – Guitars, keyboards, vocals GREGORY SPAWTON – Bass, bass pedals, 12-string acoustic guitar, Mellotron, vocalsBIG BIG TRAIN online: www.bigbigtrain.com https://www.facebook.com/bigbigtrain/ https://twitter.com/bigbigtrain www.instagram.com/bigbigtrainINSIDEOUT MUSIC online: www.insideoutmusic.com www.youtube.com/InsideOutMusicTV www.facebook.com/InsideOutMusic www.twitter.com/InsideOutUSA www.insideoutmusic.store Spotify Prog Rock Playlist

Way back in the fall of 1985, I was working part time as a D.J. for our local AM radio station–KWHK–in my hometown of Hutchinson, Kansas. Though the format of the station was Adult Contemporary Rock, KWHK had flirted for a bit with New Wave/College Rock. As such, we still received all the possible New Wave and College Rock promos. No body at the station wanted them, so I inherited a truly glorious set of vinyl. My prized possession was XTC’S Skylarking.

I very much remember when Wang Chung’s To Live and Die in L.A arrived. At the time, I didn’t think much of Wang Chung. Being somewhat of a snob and privileging anything that even smacked of progressive rock, I didn’t really take dance music too seriously. Thus, I didn’t think too much of Wang Chung.

Then, I previewed To Live and Die in L.A. Immediately I was taken with it–how complex, how driving, how smart, how utterly cinematic the music was. This wasn’t dance music–which is what I expected from Wang Chung–but something much close to, say, Yes’s Drama, Rush’s Power Windows, or The Fixx’s Reach the Beach. This was the real deal. The transition from track three, “Wake Up Stop Dreaming,” to track four, “Wait,” was especially proggy, something worthy of “Trees” and “Xanadu” on Exit Stage Left. The whole first side of the album brilliantly builds and climaxes with “Wait.”

True to form, side one of the album contains all the songs with lyrics, while side two is purely instrumental. Both sides are excellent.

For forty years now, I have thoroughly enjoyed this soundtrack. Once I switched to CDs–away from vinyl–To Live and Die in L.A. was one of the first CDs I purchased. I return to it several times a year and remember fondly that period of the first half of the 1980s when Prog and New Wave so beautifully blended into one.

What about the movie? When it first arrived in Hutchinson, 40 years ago this week, my closest friend and debate colleague, Ron Strayer, and I went to an early showing. We were suitably blown away from it. It was one of the most intense and violent movies I’d seen up to that point in my life, and I was rather taken with it. Watching it now, I see its flaws, and it doesn’t grab me like it used to.

Still, nostalgia grips me when I think of the movie, and I very much remember the glory of the 1980s.

In this post, Brad Birzer and Tad Wert discuss the recent releases from Echolyn: TimeSilentRadio II and TimeSilentRadio VII.

Tad: Brad, I am really excited about discussing these two albums with you. I discovered Echolyn back in 2012 with their eponymous album (I call it the “Windows Album”, because of its cover art), which knocked me out with its beauty and melodicism. They followed that one up with the excellent I Heard You Listening in 2015, and, except for the extraordinary Accumulated Blur single, there was nothing. I thought perhaps they had quit making new music, when, lo and behold, they graced us with not one but two full-length albums! 

TImeSilentRadio II features two songs: Time Has No Place (16:37) and Water In Our Hands (28:51), while TimeSilentRadio VII has seven tracks. I’ll start things off with stating how much I love Time Has No Place – it brings to mind side two of the Beatles’ Abbey Road, with its relatively short sections that combine into a powerful suite of music. I also hear hints of The Band, believe it or not, in a general “rootsiness” to the playing. Chris Buzby, Ray Weston, and Brett Kull have never sounded better, in my opinion, than they do now. These are seasoned, incredibly talented musicians at the top of their game. It doesn’t hurt that they also compose such catchy melodies!

What are your thoughts on this first song?

Brad: Tad, as always, a pleasure to talk with you about our favorite bands.  And, Echolyn is certainly a favorite band.  I’m in total agreement with you regarding the “Windows Album” from 2012.  It’s excellent, and its sound is so much more evolved than the band’s earlier work.  Truly a gorgeous progression and transition of the band overall from their beginnings through now.  I also really love Mei and I Heard You Listening.  Their work is incredibly complex, compelling, and mature.

I first came across Echolyn during graduate school in Bloomington, Indiana.  It was right after I finished my coursework and began to formulate my dissertation that I came across a copy of As the World.  Frankly, that CD–one of the first CDs I ever bought, along with The Hurting by Tears for Fears and October by U2–came into constant rotation, and I absorbed every aspect of it.  To be sure, it’s a weird CD, a real hodgepodge of lyrics and ideas and musical styles.  It was clear, however, that the band had absolutely poured themselves into As the World and, from almost every perspective, the album was simply “over the top” in its earnestness.  Of course, this only endeared the CD even more to me.

It should be remembered that Echolyn emerged at the same time as Hogarth-led Marillion, Roine Stolt’s The Flower Kings, and Neal Morse’s Spock’s Beard.  To put it simply, prog was in the air, and this was the very beginning of third-wave prog, led, in the beginning, by an equal number of European/English and American acts.  While grunge was dominating in the United States, there were also acts like Phish and Dave Matthews that weren’t prog, but they were prog-adjacent.  Soon, of course, the European culture would embrace prog a million times more than the American culture would, but that’s another post.  Echolyn were a bunch of young guys from the East Coast, and they were making stunningly complex music, theatrical to its core. 

So, frankly, Echolyn arrived in my life at a truly critical point.  I’d finished my coursework, but I’d not started the dissertation; I was working for the Organization of American Historians as a full-time editor, and I was still single, two years away from meeting Dedra.  Plus, I was deeply searching for meaning in all the music I listened to–whether Talk-era Yes, Brave-era Marillion, Happy Days-era Catherine Wheel, or As the World-era Echolyn.  Each of these albums was dramatically shaping my soul, my artistic outlook, and, especially, my approach to writing.  Frankly, it was a lonely but glorious time, full of adventure as well as full of challenges.

The lyrics of As the World–much like earlier Rush and Talk Talk had done–joyfully encouraged me to find my own path, to ignore the crowd, and to embrace creativity against a tapioca conformity.

So, I don’t mean to be sappy, Tad, but I simply wouldn’t be who I am today without Echolyn as those other bands just mentioned.  

As such, when Echolyn releases a new album–or, as it turned out–two new albums, I’m fully in the moment, absorbing everything I can.

Though rooted in the progressive rock tradition, Echolyn is very much their own band.  If pushed, though, I would say I hear in all their music, a huge amount of Hackett-era Genesis, a lot of Kansas, a bit of Styx, and a lot of the Tin Spirits.  The latter might just be coincidence rather than direct influence.  Or, the influence might go the other way.

But, this has been a long digression, Tad, as you only asked me for my opinion about the first track on TimeSilentRadioII, “Time Has No Place.”  Well, I love it.  From that opening guitar riff, sounding like something from the Allman Brothers, I’m completely hooked.  And, the lyrics are tone poems, invoking a myriad of images.  Yeah, Tad, this is something truly special, musically as well as lyrically.

Tad: Brad, as always, I love hearing how various artists and albums have impacted your life. I can say the same about a few albums – Roxy Music’s Avalon and Todd Rundgren’s Something/Anything?, to name a couple.

Okay, we both love “Time Has No Place”. Once again, I’ll point out how wonderfully the Beatlesque melodies pour out in this one track – it’s a blast, and it sounds like the band had a great time putting it together.

The second track on TimeSilent Radio II  is “Water In Our Hands”, and it’s almost 30 minutes long. It strikes me as more weighty and serious. I have listened to it several times, and I love the way it develops. It also contains what it probably my favorite stretch of music out of both albums: “Water In Our Hands, Part VI”, which is the final seven minutes. I must not be alone in my admiration of this section, because Echolyn made an official video for it:

There seems to be a lot of emotion in their performance, and I find it very moving. It’s just a beautiful piece of music, and one of my favorite tracks of 2025.

Brad: Thanks, Tad.  I would love to hear the story of Avalon and Something/Anything and what they mean to you.  Sounds like a great story.

I will admit, I was a bit taken aback with “Water in Our Hands.”  At 28plus minutes, I so desperately wanted to love the heck out of this track.  I wanted it to be the 2025 equivalent of 2009’s “The Under Fall Yard.”  And, for the most part I do love it.  

But, I must also admit–though this may just be the inner Puritan speaking–I hate the employment of the F word and the sort of growling presentation of it.  I just don’t understand the necessity for it.  It’s such a violent word, and it really disrupts the beauty of this song.  Echolyn is better than this, and so is its audience.  We demand beauty, truth, and goodness!

Ok, this quip aside, it’s a truly gorgeous track that flows, for the most part, immaculately, word to word, idea to idea, and tune to tune.

And, totally agreed, the last seven minutes are just simply glorious.  So perfectly Beatlesque.  

So, Tad, what do you think of the second CD, TimeSilentRadio VII?  As strong as the first disk?

Tad: Brad, at first I thought TimeSilentRadio VII was not as strong as TSR II, but the more I listen to them (and I have been listening to them as a pair), I find myself drawn to the shorter songs in TSR VII. It starts off with such an enjoyable bang with “Radio Waves”. The vocal harmonies are spot-on, and Buzby’s piano work is absolutely stellar. It’s right at 7 minutes long, but it seems much shorter. Maybe because it’s fairly fast-paced.

“Silent Years” is just as good, with some gritty guitar riffing paired with piano. Jordan Perlson’s drumming is rock-solid on this track, while the vocal harmonies are outstanding (again). As a matter of fact, I don’t recall any Echolyn album featuring vocal arrangements this complex and beautiful.

I love how “Cul-de-Sacs and Tunnels” has a really atmospheric intro that soon bursts into an energetic middle section before subsiding into a calmer conclusion. The last couple of minutes (“She’s still burning bright”) are just gorgeous. 

“Boulders on Hills” is about, I believe, domestic strife due to financial stresses. It’s an appropriately tense track. “I want more/I’ve got nothing left to give” is the sound of two desperate people. “Our Brilliant Next” is a relatively easygoing track, while “On We Blur” is a fun and bouncy tune that I find myself irresistibly singing along to. This is another song they’ve released a video for:

Trigger warning, Brad – there’s an f-bomb in it! I agree with you that it’s discouraging how the use of that language is getting normalized, but I think Echolyn are being strategic in its deployment. That said, I’d rather not hear it. 

TSR VII closes with “Tiny Star”, another song accompanied with an official video, and what a great song to wrap things up with! This is the strongest track on the album, and it encapsulates everything that is good about Echolyn: delightfully catchy melodies with interesting twists, tight-as-a-tick musicianship, and layers of vocal harmonies. “Tiny Star” is one of their best songs ever. 

Brad, I’ve rambled on a bit, but to summarize, I would say both TSR II and TSR VII are essential additions to Echolyn’s discography. It’s as if no time has passed since their last release, and they sound better than ever. Finally, I think they are two parts of an indivisible whole. I can’t imagine listening to just one album; they complement each other perfectly and need to be taken as one suite of music.

Brad: A brilliant synopsis of TimeSilentRadio VII, Tad.  Thank you.  And, I totally agree with you on these two releases.  There really couldn’t be one without the other, and I’ve been happily listening to both over the past few weeks.  I had the same thought as you–that II was better than VII, but the more I listen to it, the more I think they are equal and necessary, one to the other.  An excellent decision on the part of Echolyn to release both.

And, each adds not only something gorgeous to my Echolyn collection (and, yes, as with anything I love, I am a completist and rather hyper about it) but to my overall music collection.  As I look back over the last twenty-plus years of third wave prog, America might not quite compete in terms of volume with Europe, but it certainly does in quality.

Readers can order the new Echolyn releases here or here.

This has been a schizophrenic week for me. The beauty of a new semester and teaching things that really matter, the gorgeous early Autumnal weather, and the horrors of a Mass shooting in Minnesota. The latter has really, really affected me.

So, here I am on a Saturday morning, trying to reconcile all these things, and music becomes the medicine.

Enjoy.